(Permission is granted to print and redistribute this material
as long as this header and the footer at the end are included.)


prepared by Rabbi Eliezer Chrysler
Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem

Previous daf

Menachos 80


(a) We just cited Rebbi Yochanan, who confines the Din in the Beraisa exempting the V'lados, Temurah and Chalipin of a Korban Todah from Lechem, to after Kaparah (i.e. after the Todah was already brought), but before Kaparah', they require Lechem, too.
What problem does Rav Amram have with establishing this with regard to ...
  1. ... Chalipei Todas Chovah? Which kind of Korban Todah is obligatory anyway?
  2. ... Chalipei Todas Nedavah? What does 'Todas Nedavah' mean?
  3. ... V'lad Todas Nedavah?
(b) So what is he referring to?

(c) What makes a V'lad Todas Chovah different than a V'lad Todas Nedavah in this regard?

(d) What do we mean when we say 'Havi bah Abaye Nami ki Hai Gavna'?

(a) What corollary does Shmuel draw between a Chatas and the Lachmei Todah?

(b) According to the Mishnah in Temurah, Rebbi rules that if a Chatas got lost, was replaced and found before the second one was Shechted, one of the two Chata'os is brought, and the other one must die.
What do the Rabbanan say?

(c) What does this imply?

(a) How does the Mishnah in Temurah pose a Kashya on Shmuel? What did our Beraisa learn in this regard from "Yakrivenu"?

(b) Like whom do we establish Shmuel to answer this Kashya?

(c) We ask when Rebbi will hold 'Ro'eh'? Who said he does?

(d) And we answer - 'like Rebbi Oshaya'.
What did Rebbi Oshaya say about someone who designated two Chata'os le'Achrayos?

(a) What problem do we have with establishing Shmuel like Rebbi Oshaya?

(b) We therefore conclude that Shmuel holds neither like Rebbi nor like the Rabbanan, but like Rebbi Shimon.
What does Rebbi Shimon say?

(c) According to Rebbi Shimon, when is a Chatas Ro'eh?

(d) How do we then amend Shmuel's statement, in order to establish him like Rebbi Shimon?

(e) Why did Shmuel then find it necessary to correlate the Todah with the Chatas? Why did he not just say 'Halachah ke'Rebbi Shimon'?

(a) What does Rabah say about a case where someone declared 'Zu Todah ve'Zu Lachmah' and ...
  1. ... the Lechem got lost?
  2. ... the Todah got lost?
(b) Why the difference?

(c) Why is he Patur from replacing the Korban in the latter case?

(d) Then why is he Chayav to replace the Lechem in the former case?

Answers to questions



(a) And what does Rabah say about using money leftover from one's Todah to purchase Lachmei Todah?

(b) The source for this ruling is a D'rashah of Rav Kahana.
What did Rav Kahana learn from the Pasuk in Tzav - "Ve'hikriv al Zevach ha'Todah Chalos Matzos"?

(c) Then by the same token, why can one not use money leftover from one's Lachmei Todah to purchase a Todah?

(a) Rabah rules that if, after setting aside a second Todah to replace one that got lost, and a third one when the second one got lost, both Todos are found, he then brings the first one, the second one does not require Lechem, the third one does.
Why is that?

(b) What does he say in a case where he brought ...

  1. ... the third Todah?
  2. ... the second Todah?
(c) Abaye disagrees.
What does he say?
(a) How does Rebbi Zeira extend Rabah's previous ruling to three Chata'os, following the loss of the first Chatas, then the second, and then both are found?

(b) What does Abaye say there?

(c) If Rebbi Zeira had not extended Rabah's ruling to a Chatas, why might we have thought otherwise?

(d) What would expect Rabah to have then ruled?

(a) Rebbi Chiya quoting a Beraisa, rules that if a Todah becomes mixed up with its Temurah, and one of them dies, there is nothing one can do about it.
Why is that? What is the problem?

(b) Rebbi Chiya cannot be speaking when the owner said 'Harei Zu'.
Why not? What would he then be able to do?

(c) So how is he speaking?

(d) Why can he not bring a second Todah 'le'Acharayus, just like in the case of 'Harei Alai'?

(a) 'Lemeidin Lifnei Rebbi' queries Rebbi Chiya's Beraisa.
Who is 'Lemeidin Lifnei Chachamim'?

(b) Let him bring Lechem, he asks, and stipulate that if the remaining animal is the Todah, then the Lechem should be Lachmei Todah, whereas if it is the Temurah, then it (the Lechem) should remain Chulin.
What does this mean? Who would then eat the forty loaves?

(c) On what grounds do we refute Levi's suggestion?

(a) Why can one not bring another animal with the Lechem and stipulate that if the remaining animal is the Temurah then this animal is the Todah, and the Lechem, its Lachmei Todah; whereas if the remaining animal is the Todah, then the Lechem is its Lachmei Todah, and the second animal will be a Shelamim?

(b) Levi asked Rebbi the same Kashya, only he suggested that the second animal should be (not a Shelamim, but) a Mosar Todah.
What was Rebbi's reaction to that?

(c) Why was Rebbi so upset by Levi's Kashya?

(d) And what did Rav Nachman retort when Rebbi Yitzchak bar Shmuel bar Marsa made the same suggestion, but substituted Temurah for Shelamim and Mosar Todah?

Answers to questions

Next daf


For further information on
subscriptions, archives and sponsorships,
contact Kollel Iyun Hadaf,