ANSWERS TO REVIEW QUESTIONS
prepared by Rabbi Eliezer Chrysler
Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem
Previous daf Menachos 23
MENACHOS 23 (3 Cheshvan) - dedicated l'Iluy Nishmas Malka bas Menashe (and
Chana), Mollie Krause, in honor of her third Yahrzeit, by her daughter Gitle
Bekelnitzky. Under both material and spiritual duress, she and her husband
raised their children in the spirit of our fathers, imbuing them with a love
for Torah and Yiddishkeit. Her home was always open to the needy, even when
her family did not have enough to feed themselves.
(a) According to Rebbi Yochanan, the Kometz of a Minchsa Chotei to which one
added oil is Pasul. Resh Lakish says - on the contrary, one mixes in
leftover oil from the Log of other Menachos (see Tosfos DH 'Hu Atzmo').
(b) Resh Lakish explains the Pasuk (in connection with a Minchas Chotei) "Lo
Yasim Alehah Shemen ... " - as a prohibition to not add oil to a Minchas
Chotei, like one does to other Menachos.
(c) Rebbi Yochanan queried Resh Lakish from a Beraisa. The Tana Kama there
says 'Charev she'Nis'arev be'Balul, Yakriv' - because 'Ein Olin Mevatlin Zeh
(d) Rebbi Yehudah says - 'Lo Yakriv'.
(a) If some Sheyarei Shemen fell on to the 'Charev' - the Rabbanan would
agree 'Lo Yakriv' (a Kashya on Resh Lakish).
(b) Rebbi Yochanan assumes that 'Chorev' and 'Balul' refer to the Kometz of
a Minchas Chotei and 'Balul', to that of a Minchas Nedavah respectively.
Resh Lakish interprets them as - Minchas Parim ve'Eilim and Minchas Kevasim
(c) The difference between Parim and Eilim (on the one hand), and Kevasim
(on the other) is - six Lugin and three Esronim (Parim), four Lugin and two
Esronim (Eilim), a ratio of one Log per two Esronim, and three Lugin and one
(d) If the Kometz of a Minchas Chotei became mixed up with that of a
'Balul', according to Resh Lakish - even Rebi Yehudah would agree that
(a) The problem Rebbi Yochanan has with Resh Lakish's answer is - that in
the very same Mishnah, Rebbi Yehudah and the Tana Kama mention Minchas Parim
ve'Eilim which became mixed up with Kevasim independently (even before
Charev and Balul).
(b) Resh Lakish replied 'Pirushi ka'Mefaresh', meaning - that the Mishnah is
equating Minchas Parim ve'Eilim which became mixed up with Kevasim with
Charev be'Balul, since even there (by the former), the Rabbanan hold
(a) Rava asked what the Din will be if the Kohen squeezes the oil out of the
Kometz on to the Ma'arachah, before placing the Kometz on top of it. This
might not be a case of 'Chaser Komtzo' - because of the possibility that
'Chiburei Olin ke'Olin', meaning that when the Kohen subsequently places the
Kometz on the Ma'arachah, it is as if the oil that is already burning on the
Ma'arachah, now becomes absorbed inside it.
(b) In a case where someone sacrifices ba'Chutz a limb which only comprises
a k'Zayis together with the bone, Rebbi Yochanan rules 'Chayav', Resh
Lakish - 'Patur' ...
(c) ... because the former holds 'Chiburei Olin ke'Olin Damu', the latter,
'La'av ke'Ochlin Damu'.
(d) Ravina now suggests to Rav Ashi - that Rava's She'eilah is subject to
the Machlokes between Rebbi Yochanan and Resh Lakish.
(e) Rav Ashi replied that the She'eilah is applicable both according to
Rebbi Yochanan and according to Resh Lakish. Even ...
1. ... Rebbi Yochanan might concede that in our case (of the Kometz and the
oil), 'Chiburei Olin La'av ke'Olin Dami' - since, unlike the flesh and the
bone, they are two different entities.
2. ... Resh Lakish might concede that, in our case, 'Chiburei Olin ke'Olin
Dami' - because, as opposed to the bone (which is not an intrinsic part of
the flesh, because, should it fall off the Mizbe'ach, there is no Mitzvah to
return it), the oil is an intrinsic part of the Kometz).
(a) Our Mishnah rules that if two Menachos became mixed-up - as long as
enough of each one remains recognizable (i.e. if they fell on two different
sides of the K'li, and are only mixed in the middle) to take a Kemitzah from
each one, then one should. If not, they are both Pasul.
(b) We learn this from the Pasuk (in connection with the Kemitzah)
"mi'Soltah" - from which we Darshen 've'Lo mi'So'les Chavertah' (that the
Kometz may not contain any flour from another Minchah).
(c) The Kohen may not ...
1. ... burn the entire mixture - because the Kemitzah is crucial to the
2. ... simply take two Kemitzos from the mixture and burn them - in case he
includes some flour from the second Minchah in either Kemitzah (as we just
(a) The Tana also forbids burning a Kometz that became mixed up with a
Minchah from which the Kemitzah was not taken - because it is forbidden to
burn a Minchah from which the Kemitzah has not been taken.
(b) We learn from the Pasuk "Lo Saktiru Mimenu Isheh la'Hashem" - a
prohibition to burn the Shirayim of a Minchah ('Kol she'Mimenu la'Ishim,
Harei Hu be'Bal Taktiru').
(c) In a case where the Kohen burned the Kometz of a Minchah that became
mixed-up with its own Shirayim or with somebody else's, the Tana rules
that - the owner of the Kometz has fulfilled his duty.
(a) Rav Chisda makes a distinction between a piece of Neveilah that became
mixed-up with two pieces of Shechutah - which becomes Bateil, and a piece of
Shechutah that became mixed-up with two pieces of Neveilah - which does
(b) The ramifications of the distinction are - whether if Terumah touched
one of the pieces, it becomes Tamei (and needs to be burned) or not.
(c) This is - because the Shechutah can never become intrinsically Tamei
like the Neveilah, whereas the Neveilah can become intrinsically Tahor like
the Shechutah (i.e. once it becomes unfit for a Ger to eat), turning it into
a case of Miyn be'she'Eino Miyno (see Rashi in Beitzah 38b), which is Bateil
(d) According to Rav Chisda - if the Mevateil can become like the Bateil, it
is considered 'Miyn be'Miyno'; if not, it is considered 'Miyn be'she'Eino
(a) Rebbi Chanina disagrees with Rav Chisda - in that he goes after the
Bateil. Consequently, he holds that if the Bateil can become like the
Mevateil, it is considered 'Miyn be'Miyno' and is not Bateil; whereas if it
cannot, it is 'Miyn be'she'Eino Miyno , and is Bateil.
(b) Rebbi Chanina will therefore hold that ...
1. ... Neveilah that became mixed-up with Shechutah - is not Bateil.
(c) The problem with this is - that according to the opinion of ...
2. ... Shechutah that became mixed-up with Neveilah - is Bateil.
1. ... the Rabbanan - Miyn be'Miyno is no less Bateil than Miyn be'she'Eino
(d) We know that Rebbi Yehudah does not consider 'Efshar Lih'yos Kamohu' a
criterion to determine 'Miyn be'Miyno' - because in the case of Dam ha'Par
and Dam ha'Sa'ir too, the latter can never resemble the former, yet he
considers it Miyn be'Miyno.
2. ... Rebbi Yehudah - the criterion for Miyn be'Miyno is 'Chazuta' (its
appearance, irrespective of Halachic similarities or differences).
Consequently, in this case - seeing as Neveilah and Basar are both Basar,
neither ought to be Bateil.
(a) So we establish the current Sugya like Rebbi Chiya, who quoted a
Beraisa - 'Neveilah u'Shechutah Beteilos Zu be'Zu'.
(b) Rebbi Chanina and Rav Chisda now argue over - whether the Tana means
'Neveilah in Shechutah' (Rav Chisda) or Shechutah in Neveilah (Rebbi
(c) The problem with this is - that Rebbi Chiya cannot go like ...
1. ... the Rabbanan - because they hold 'Miyn be'Miyno Bateil'.
(d) We establish Rebbi Chiya like Rebbi Yehudah - by conceding that if
either the Bateil cannot become like the Mevatel or vice-versa, it is
considered 'Miyn be'she'Eino Miyno', and is therefore Bateil.
2. ... Rebbi Yehudah - because he holds 'Miyn be'Miyno, Eino Bateil' (under
any circumstances, or so we initially think).
(a) This goes well with Rebbi Chanina, since (in the Mishnah in Zevachim
[the source of the Machlokes between Rebbi Yehudah and the Rabbanan])
Kodshim can become like Chulin - if they are left overnight, to become Pasul
(b) The problem according to Rav Chisda, who goes after the Mevateil is -
how can Dam Chulin become like Dam Kodshim?
(c) To answer this Kashya, Rav Chisda will explain the 'Nis'arev be Dam
Beheimah ... ' - where it is the Dam Kodshim which is the majority, and it
is a question of the Dam Chulin becoming Bateil in it).
(a) We learned in our Mishnah that if two Menachos became mixed-up, if one
cannot take a Kemitzah from each one, they are Pasul (even if it is possible
to take from one of them). The author cannot be the Rabbanan - because,
seeing as they hold 'Miyn be'Miyno Bateil', according to them, there is no
reason for the Shirayim (which are not considered Olin) not to be Mevatel
the part of the other Minchah that is mixed with it (rendering the latter a
Minchah that became Chaser before the Kemitzah).
(b) Assuming that one did take a Kemitzah from one of them, the other
Minchah would now constitute the Bateil and the Shirayim, the Mevatel.
(a) In the current case, there is no problem according to Rebbi Chanina -
because the Minchah can become like the Shirayim (by taking a Kemitzah from
it), in which case it is Miyn be'Miyno.
(b) The problem according to Rav Chisda is - that since the Shirayim cannot
become like the Minchah, it ought to be considered Miyn be'she'Eino Miyno,
prompting us to propose that the author of our Mishnah cannot be (the Tana
of) Rebbi Chiya.
(c) We reject this proposition however, based on a statement of Rebbi Zeira,
who learned from a 'Gezeirah-Shavah' Haktarah be'Shirayim from Haktarah
be'Kometz - that just as one Kometz cannot be Mevatel another Kometz, so
too, can the Shirayim not be Mevatel a Kometz.
(d) The fact that the Shirayim not being Mevatel the Minchah, stems from a
'Gezeirah-Shavah', and not from the Din of Miyn be'Miyno Eino Bateil',
reinstates the possibility of our Mishnah going like Rebbi Chiya.
(a) We also learned in our Mishnah that in a case where a Kometz became
mixed-up with a Minchah from which the Kometz has not been taken, and that
one subsequently burned on the Mizbe'ach, the owner has fulfilled his duty.
This cannot go like the Rabbanan - because according to them, there is no
reason for the Kometz not to become Bateil in the Minchah, in which case,
the owner would not be Yotze.
(b) The problem in trying to establish the author as Rebbi Yehudah is - that
according to Rebbi Chanina, who goes after the Bateil, why is the Kometz,
which cannot become like the Minchah, not Bateil (even according to Rebbi
(c) We answer ...
1. ... this Kashya - by again citing Rebbi Zeira, and that is how we answer
2. ... the equivalent Kashya from the Seifa 'Nis'arev Komtzah be'Shirehah
... , ve'Im Hiktir, Alsah le'Ba'alim' (though in fact, it is on this case
that Rebbi Zeira actually presented the 'Gezeirah-Shavah').
(a) Finally, we ask from the Beraisa, which permits a Matzah dough that
contains Katzach (poppy-seeds). Assuming that the Katzach is in the
majority - we can ask from this Beraisa on Rav Chisda, who goes after the
Mevatel - that, seeing as here, the poppy-seeds cannot become Matzah, why
are they not Mevatel the Matzah?
(b) This is not a problem according to Rebbi Chanina however - because the
Matzah can indeed become like spices, in the event that it becomes moldy.
(c) We refute the Kashya on Rav Chisda however - by establishing the Beraisa
when the Katzach is in the minority.
(d) And we extrapolate this from the Lashon of the Beraisa - 'Matzah Hi, Ela
she'Nikra'as Matzah Metuveles', implying that the Matzah is in the majority.