ANSWERS TO REVIEW QUESTIONS
prepared by Rabbi Eliezer Chrysler
Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem
Previous daf Chulin 116
CHULIN 116 (27 Iyar) - Dedicated by Gitle Bekelnitzky in honor of the sixth
Yahrzeit of her father, Zev ben Ephraim v'Chaya Krause.
(a) We just concluded that there is no Pircha to ask on the case of Kil'ayim
(vis-a-vis Basar be'Chalav). And we query this with the Pircha 'Mah li'Kelai
ha'Kerem she'Kein Lo Haysah Lah Sha'as ha'Kosher' (like we asked on Orlah).
This Kashya is based on the misconception - that the original seeds do not
become forbidden, only what grows from the roots.
(b) Rav Ada bar Ahavah therefore answers - that once Kil'ayim grows, even
the roots become forbidden (which were originally permitted).
(a) Rav Shemaya bar Ze'ira queries this however, from a Beraisa, where the
Tana, discussing a plant pot with a hole containing seeds that one
transports through a vine-yard ...
1. ... forbids the growth as long as - so much grew that there is less than
two hundred of the Heter to the one of Isur that grew after it entered the
(b) This proves - that only what subsequently grows (beyond the Shi'ur of
two hundred is Asur, but not the original seeds), just like we originally
2. ... permits it - as long as less than that grew, leaving at least two
hundred of Heter against the one of Isur.
(c) Abaye answers by citing two Pesukim in Ki Seitzei. He establishes ...
1. ... "Pen Tikdash ha'Melei'ah" - by a vineyard to which seeds, which where
planted be'Heter, were brought only later. These remain Heter, and it is
only what subsequently grows (by two hundred per cent) that becomes
(d) We establish our Mishnah not like Rebbi Shimon ben Yehudah, who learns
in the name of Rebbi Shimon (from the 'Gezeirah-Shavah' "Ki Am Kadosh Atah"
and "ve'Anshei Kodesh Tih'yun Li") - that just as Tereifah is Mutar
be'Hana'ah, so too is Basar be'Chalav.
2. ... "ha'Zera" - by seeds that were sown in the vineyard be'Isur, which
become Asur as soon as they take root.
(a) The problem with Rebbi Akiva, who precludes Chayah, Of and Beheimah
Teme'ah from the prohibition of Basar be'Chalav from the three times *G'di*"
in the Torah is - that we need all three of them for Shmuel's D'rashos (one
to include Cheilev and Meisah, one to include a Sh'lil and one to preclude a
Beheimah Temei'ah [the only which coincides with Rebbi Akiva]).
(b) We dispense with the Kashya from ...
1. ... 'Cheilev' and 'Meisah' - in that Rebbi Akiva holds 'Isur Chal al
Isur' (already before the D'rashah).
2. ... 'Sh'lil' - in that he considers a Sh'lil to be a Beheimah,] and that
it does not therefore need a Pasuk to include it.
(a) One of the differences between Rebbi Akiva in our Mishnah ('Chayah ve'Of
Einah min ha'Torah') and Rebbi Yossi Hagelili ('es she'Asur Mishum Neveilah
Asur Levashel be'Chalav') is a Chayah - which is Asur d'Oraysa according to
Rebbi Yossi Hagelili, but only mi'de'Rabbanan, according to Rebbi Akiva.
(b) Alternatively, they argue over Of - which Rebbi maintains is Asur
mi'de'Rabbanan, whilst Rebbi Yossi Hagelili holds that the Rabbanan issued
no such a decree.
(c) This latter interpretation of their Machlokes has the support of a
Beraisa, which testifies how the residents of Rebbi Eliezer's town (based on
his opinion that 'All necessary preparations for a Mitzvah that overrides
Shabbos, override Shabbos, too') used to cut wood on Shabbos to burn a fire
to make charcoal - in order to fashion a knife, so as to be able to perform
a B'ris that has fallen due on the same day.
(d) The Tana also testifies - that in Rebbi Yossi Hagelili's town they used
to cook fowl in milk.
(a) When Levi arrived at the house of Yosef the bird hunter and saw that
they served a peacock's head that had been cooked in milk - he said nothing.
(b) Rebbi maintained - that he should have placed them in Cherem.
(c) Levi however, justified his silence - inasmuch as he assumed that the
place, whose Rav was Rebbi Yehudah ben Beseira - followed the opinion of
Rebbi Hagelili, who permitted it, even mi'de'Rabbanan, as we just learned.
(a) When our Mishnah forbids the Keivah of Nochrim and of Neveilah - it is
referring to the congealed milk that one finds inside the stomach of such
(b) The Tana forbids placing milk inside an animal's stomach (to manufacture
cheese [i.e. the cheese is forbidden]) - if the stomach is Nosen Ta'am.
(c) And he forbids the milk that a Kasher animal suckled from a Tereifah -
but permits the milk that a Tereifah suckled from a Kesheirah ...
(d) ... because milk that an animal suckles does not become part of it, but
is rather considered as if it was lying in a jar.
(a) Some Poskim want to permit congealed milk that one finds inside an
animal's stomach if they were salted together, or if one added other milk,
in order to manufacture cheese - because they consider this to be a case of
'Nat bat Nat' (since the congealed milk adopted the taste of the meat, which
it then instilled into the other milk.
(b) And they cite as a precedent fish that was cooked in a meat pot, which
may be eaten together with a milk dish (as we learned above).
(c) But in reality, there is no comparison at all between the two cases -
since the first taste in the latter case, is Heter, whereas the first taste
in our case (the milk in the stomach) is Isur (because of the principle
'Chatichah Na'asis Neveilah', as we already learned).
(d) Neither can the milk that one added become Bateil - because we rule
'Miyn be'Miyno Eino Bateil'.
(a) Rashi originally permitted the congealed milk, provided no other milk
was added - because he considered it 'Pirsha b'Alma' (waste matter whose
Chashivus has become Bateil).
(b) And he based this error on a Mishnah in Avodah-Zarah - which permits a
Kohen who is not finnicky to eat it, because it is 'Pirsha be'Alma' ...
(c) ... which really means - that it has not become part of the Olah (though
it is still considered milk).
(d) And the reason that the Mishnah there forbids the same congealed milk if
it is found inside an animal of Avodah-Zarah - is because those who serve it
are pleased that it is there, since it causes the animal to weigh more
(which renders it part of the Avodah-Zarah animal).
(a) The problem with our Mishnah, which refers to 'the stomach that one
obtains from a Nochri and the stomach of Neveilah' is - that surely the
former is a Neveilah too (so why does the Tana need to add 'Neveilah')?
(b) Rav Huna establishes the former by the stomach of a kid-goat that one
purchased from a Nochri, and we are afraid that it may have suckled from a
Tereifah. We query this however from a Beraisa - which permits purchasing
eggs from a Nochri, (and do not suspect that they are perhaps eggs that were
found inside a Neveilah or laid by a Tereifah). By the same token, we ought
not to suspect that the kid suckled from a Tereifah either.
(c) So we ascribe the prohibition to the fear that the kid may have suckled
from a Beheimah Temei'ah, which is more like than a Tereifah - because it is
(d) And the reason that we do not forbid the milk that one finds inside the
stomach of a kid-goat, even if it belongs to a Yisrael is - because we are
careful to keep our animals away from non-Kasher species (in which case they
are no more common than Tereifos.
(a) Shmuel explains that 'Keivas Akum ve'shel Neveilah' is actually one
statement, meaning - that the congealed milk in the stomach of a kid, lamb
or calf is considered Neveilah.
(b) The reason that Shmuel gives for the prohibition of cheese that is
manufactured by a Nochri - is because they would place the milk inside the
stomach of a Neveilah.
(c) We reconcile that with his current statement, which considers the
congealed milk itself, Neveilah - by establishing the latter (our Mishnah),
before Rebbi Yehoshua retracted, and the former, after the retraction.
(a) Originally, Rebbi Yehoshua attributed the Chachamim's prohibition on
Nochri cheese - to the fact that they would place it in the congealed milk
of a Neveilah.
(b) However, Rebbi Yishmael forced Rebbi Yehoshua to retract - by asking him
how that could possibly be, seeing as the Isur of Olah is more stringent
than that of Neveilah, yet Chazal permitted a Kohen to eat it (as we learned
(c) Rebbi Yehoshua subsequently attributed the prohibition to the fact -
that the Nochrim place the cheese in the actual stomach of calves of
(a) The Seifa of our Mishnah permits the congealed milk that one finds
inside a Tereifah. Rav Chisda tries to reconcile this with the Reisha, which
forbids 'Keivas Akum ve'shel Neveilah', by differentiating between
Neveilah - which is disgusting (because it appears that one is eating
Neveilos), which is why the Chachamim forbade it, and Tereifah (which is
not, seeing as the animal was Shechted).
(b) Rava rejects Rav Chisda's answer on the grounds that, if anything, the
opposite is more logical - because the more disgusting it is, the less
reason there is to forbid the milk, since one is less likely to then eat the
stomach; whereas in the case where it is not disgusting, there is more
reason to issue a decree, in case one does.
(c) So Rav Yitzchak Amar Rebbi Yochanan reconciles the Reisha of the Mishnah
with the Seifa - by establishing the former before Rebbi Yehoshua retracted
(as we explained a little earlier), and the latter, after the retraction.
(d) Despite the fact that the Seifa speaks after Rebbi Yehoshua retracted,
Rebbi did not remove the Reisha from the text - because that is what he
often does (in order not to confuse those who already learned it and fixed
it in their minds.
(a) Regarding making cheese by placing it in congealed milk, Rebbi Chiya bar
Aba Amar Rebbi Yochanan - permitted doing so in the congealed milk found
inside a Neveilah, but forbade if it was found inside an animal Shechted by
(b) When Rebbi Shimon bar Aba suggested that this was the opinion of Rebbi
Eliezer - he was referring to Rebbi Eliezer who learns that S'tam Machsheves
Oved-Kochavim la'Avodas Kochavim'.
(c) This renders it Asur - because the owner is pleased that the animal
weighs more (as we explained earlier), since it is a Kavod for the
(d) Following Rebbi Shimon bar Aba's suggestion, Rebbi Chiya bar Aba
commented - 'Who else' (meaning that of course it was (the opinion of Rebbi
(a) We finally rule that placing cheese ...
1. ... in the stomach of a Neveilah - is forbidden (if it is Nosen Ta'am).
(b) ... because we do not rule like Rebbi Eliezer.
2. ... in the congealed milk that one finds in the stomach of a Neveilah -
is permitted (like Rebbi Yehoshua after he retracted).
3. ... in the congealed milk that one finds inside an animal that was
Shechted by a Nochri - is permitted ...