ANSWERS TO REVIEW QUESTIONS
prepared by Rabbi Eliezer Chrysler
Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem
Previous daf Chulin 16
CHULIN 16 - This Daf has been sponsored by Dr. and Mrs. Shalom Kelman of
Baltimore, Maryland, USA. May Hashem bless them with long years filled
with Torah, Chidushei Torah, and Nachas!
(a) We just cited the Beraisa validating Shechitah that is performed with a
wheel. To reconcile it with the Beraisa which invalidates it even
Bedi'eved - we establish it by a potter's wheel, which works manually;
whereas the other Beraisa speaks about a water-wheel, which works by means
of a flowing river (rendering such a Shechitah Pasul, because it is lacking
'Ko'ach Gavra' [a manual act required in connection with Shechitah]).
(b) We might reconcile the two Beraisos however, even if they are both
speaking about a water-wheel - by drawing a distinction between 'Ko'ach
Rishon' (the initial act that caused the water to flow, such as removing a
board that was preventing the water from flowing), and 'Ko'ach Sheini' (the
water that continues to flow automatically after the board has been
(a) We base this distinction on a statement of Rav Papa, who ruled that, if
Reuven ties-up Shimon before killing him, by diverting a stream of water to
flow over him - he is Chayav.
(b) And we establish Rav Papa's statement by 'Ko'ach Rishon' which renders
him Chayav - because the water is considered as if it was his arrows that
(c) 'Ko'ach Sheini' in this case refers to - where Reuven placed the
trussed-up Shimon at a distance from the source of the water, so that by the
time the water reached him, the flow was automatic (and no longer the direct
result of Reuven's action).
(d) The basis for the distinction between the first flow and the second one
is - that whereas the first flow is considered Reuven's action (as we
explained), the second one falls under the category of 'G'rama' (indirectly
causing a person's death, for which one is Patur).
(a) Rav had asked Rebbi - for the source confining Shechitah to Talush,
causing the latter to quote the Pasuk (in connection with Akeidas Yitzchak)
"Vayikach es ha'Ma'acheles Lishchot es B'no" (implying that the knife was
(b) When this session took place - Rebbi Chiya was sitting in front of Rav,
(c) Rebbi Chiya disagreed with Rebbi, as we learned above. When ...
1. ... he said to Rav 'Vav a'Apusa ka'Amar', he meant - that Rebbi's answer
was wrong, like a 'Vav' that one writes across a rough block of wood, and,
which, due to the numerous grooves in the wood, comes out improperly written
(or he refers to the actual grooves as the 'Vav').
(d) Alternatively, we will ascribe ...
2. ... they asked him how he interpreted the Pasuk that Rebbi quoted, and he
replied 'K'ra Zerizuseih de'Avraham ka'Mashma-Lan', he meant - that the
Pasuk is teaching us Avraham's Zerizus (keenness to perform the Mitzvah, how
he took a knife with him, refusing to rely on the numerous rocks that must
have abounded in the area.
1. ... Rav's querying of Rebbi's reply - to his not having heard the Pasuk
that he quoted.
2. ... the question 've'Ha K'ra ka'Amar' - to Rav's querying of Rebbi Chiya,
as to how he could possibly argue with Rebbi.
(a) We learn from the Pasuk "Eloheihem al he'Harim" - that someone who
worships something that is Mechubar le'Karka, does not render it Asur?
(b) Rava therefore proves from Rav's ruling that someone who prostrates
himself to his house renders it Asur - that 'Talush ve'li'Besof Chibro' has
a Din of Talush, as far as Avodah-Zarah is concerned (since the bricks of
the house were initially Talush).
(c) Regarding the Din of be'Chi Yutan' (Hechsher Mayim), if a person is
pleased when he sees that rain has filled his ...
1. ... Keilim - the water is 'be'Chi Yutan' (to render fruit that it touches
Muchshar Lekabeil Tum'ah.
(d) The difference - is based on the fact that water that the owner had in
mind to use for Talush exclusively, is subject to the Din of 'be'Chi Yutan',
but not what is meant to be used for Mechubar.
2. ... pit - it is not.
(a) The Mishnah in Machshirin rules that someone who places an overturned
dish on to a wall, in order ...
1. ... that the rain should wash it - the rain that subsequently falls is
Muchshar Lekabeil Tum'ah.
(b) We can infer from the Reisha of the Mishnah, - that if a person placed
an overturned dish in a position that deflects the rain on to the wall in
order to wash it - the water is not Muchshar Lekabeil Tum'ah, whereas the
Seifa implies - that it is.
2. ... to protect the wall from getting wet - it is not.
(c) Rebbi Elazar resolves the contradictory inferences with 'Tavra, Mi
she'Shanah Zu Lo Shanah Zu', meaning that - the first Tana holds that
'Talush ve'li'Besof Chibro' is considered Mechubar, whereas the second Tana
considers it Talush (which is what Rava was referring to when he declared
that this was a Machlokes).
(a) Rav Papa disagrees with Rebbi Elazar (and with Rava), establishing the
entire Mishnah like one Tana, who holds 'Talush ve'li'Besof Chibro' - is
(b) And he establishes the Reisha - by the wall of a cave, where the water
is not Muchshar Lekabeil Tum'ah, because it is Mechubar Me'ikara ...
(c) ... even if someone dug it manually, because although he dug the cave,
he did not build the wall, which stood automatically.
(d) Rav Papa changes the format of the Beraisa, by adding to the Reisha -
'Bameh Devarim Amurim, be'Kosel Me'arah, Aval be'Kosel Binyan ... '.
(a) Rava now asks what the Din will be by 'Talush ve'li'Besof Chibro' with
regard to Shechitah. We try to prove from the Beraisa (which we cited
earlier) 'Hayah Tzur Yotzei min ha'Kosel, O she'Hayah Kanah Oleh Me'eilav,
Ve'shachat, Shechitaso Pesulah' - that 'Talush ve'li'Besof Chibro' regarding
Shechitah is considered Mechubar.
(b) We ...
1. ... refute this proof however - by establishing the Beraisa by the wall
of a cave (which we discussed a little earlier).
(c) And we refute the proof from the same Beraisa ...
2. ... substantiate the refutation - by referring to 'the cane which grew by
itself' that juxtaposes it, and that is certainly Mechubar Me'ikara.
1. ... 'Na'atz Sakin be'Kosel ve'Shachat Bah, Shechitaso Kesheirah' (that
Talush ve'li'Besof Mwchubar is considered Talush) - by pointing out that a
person is not usually Mevateil a knife in a wall (in which case, it is not
Mechubar at all).
2. ... 'bi'Mechubar le'Karka, Shechitaso Kesheirah' - by suggesting that the
case of 'Na'atz Sakin be'Kosel ... ', that follows, might be coming to
explain that (rather than considering it an independent case).
(a) Rav Anan Amar Shmuel qualifies the Beraisa that we just quoted 'Na'atz
Sakin be'Kosel ve'Shachat Bah, Shechitaso Kesheirah' - by confining it to
where the knife is on top and the animal underneath; but where the animal is
on top and the knife underneath, the Shechitah is Pasul ...
(b) ... because we are afraid that, due to the weight of the animal, the
Shochet will make D'rasah.
(c) Rav Z'vid reconciles Rav Anan with the Beraisa, which validates the
Shechitah irrespective of whether the knife is below and the neck of the
animal on top, or whether the knife is on top and the neck of the animal,
below (even assuming that the Tana is speaking about the neck of an
animal) - by establishing the Reisha by Talush, and the Seifa, by Mechubar
(d) Rav Papa avoids having to come on to 'li'Tzedadin' - by establishing the
Beraisa by the Shechitah of a bird.
(a) Rav Chisda Amar Rebbi Yitzchak (or a Beraisa) lists five things that one
should not do with a K'rumis shel Kanah (the sharp edge of a cane). Besides
Shechitah, Milah, and cutting meat, the Tana includes - picking one's teeth
and wiping oneself clean After going to the bathroom.
(b) Rav Chisda's reason for prohibiting these things is - because when
cutting with such a cane, it tends to leave splinters, and is therefore
(c) Rav Papa reconciles this with the Beraisa, which specifically permits
Shechting with a 'K'rumis shel Kanah', as we learned earlier - by
translating 'K'rumis shel Kanah' there, as the sharp edge of a dry reed
(which does not leave splinters).
1. Rav Papa would cut the innards of fish with the sharp edge of a cane -
because they are sufficiently transparent for any splinters to be easily
discernible (and therefore does not constitute any danger).
(b) Mar said that if someone used anything flammable to wipe himself clean -
his Shinei ha'Karkashta (the glands supporting the intestines) would fall
2. Rabah bar Rav Huna would use it to cut a bird into pieces - because a
bird is soft, dispensing with the need to apply much pressure, in which case
the cane will not leave any splinters.
(c) Consequently, Rav Papa explains, that the 'cleaning oneself with the
sharp edge of a cane' mentioned by Rav Chisda, refers to - he is cleaning
out a wound.
(a) We learned in our Mishnah 'ha'Kol Shochtin u'Le'olam Shochtin'. 'ha'Kol
Shochtin' means - that everything requires Shechitah, even birds.
(b) We need a Mishnah to teach us that - since it is not mentioned in a
(c) Initially, Rabah ascribes 'Le'olam Shochtin' to Rebbi Yishmael in a
Beraisa - who interprets the Pasuk in "Ki Yarchiv Hashem ... es Gevulcha
Ve'amarta Ochlah Basar" to mean - that one is permitted to eat Basar Ta'avah
(meat that is eaten without being brought as a Korban), after the Churban
(d) We need a Pasuk to teach us this, because we might otherwise have
thought - that once Yisrael were sent into exile, the Heter to eat Basar
Ta'avah that came into effect when they entered Eretz Yisrael was rescinded
and it was once again Asur like it had been in the desert.
(e) Someone who ate Basar Ta'avah in the desert - was Chayav Kareis.
(a) Rav Yosef asks on Rabah from the Lashon 'Le'olam Shochtim', which,
according to him, should have read - Le'olam Shochtin ve'Ochlin' (since the
main Chidush is the Heter Achilah, and not the Heter Shechitah).
(b) He also asks on Rabah - that seeing as Basar Ta'avah was originally
forbidden because of Yisrael's easy access to the Mishkan, and became
permitted when the entered Eretz Yisrael, because it became too far to
travel, now that they were in Galus, there was even more reason to permit
it. So we do not need a Mishnah to teach us this.
(a) So Rav Yosef ascribes 'Le'olam Shochtim' to Rebbi Akiva, who learn from
the Pasuk "ki Yirchak Mimcha ha'Makom ... Ve'zavachta mi'Bekarcha
u'mi'Tzoncha" - the prohibition of eating animals that have been killed by
means other than Shechitah ('Basar Nechirah', which really means meat from
an animal that was torn open from the notrils down to the chest), once they
entered Eretz Yisrael.
(b) We would otherwise have thought - that once they left Eretz Yisrael,
Basar Nechirah would again become permitted, like it was during the forty
years that they traveled in the desert.